After the showing of El Cid at the Ontario Film Institute, Miklós Rózsa spoke about his involvement with the film, and then took some questions from the audience.
Gerald Pratley: Miklós, I think this is the first time you've seen the film since it was completed.
Miklós Rózsa: Yes.
GP: I was wondering, as you sat watching the film, what memories were stirred by hearing the music again, whether or not you now felt more detached from it, for example.
MR: To tell you frankly, I liked it. (Laughter) It happened this way: I did a picture for Mr. Bronston, the previous to this one, which was called King of Kings. The preview for King of Kings was in America, and the picture was shot in Spain, where Bronston had his studios. And after the preview, he told me that he has just produced an epic picture called El Cid and would I do the music? And I told him that as far as I knew, he already had a composer, which I heard about [Mario Nascimbene]. And he said, yes, he had a composer, but he didn't want him, and if I say yes, he will talk to the M-G-M people, because I was under contract at M-G-M, and I would immediately go to Madrid (this was in the spring of 1961), and do the music. But I said, "Are you sure that the other composer is out?" He said, "Oh yes, I heard his music and I hated it. I want you." So the next day M-G-M called me and said they'd already made a deal with Mr. Bronston and I'm on my way to Madrid. Well, it was interesting, because I have never been connected with any kind of Spanish music, especially not Spanish music of the 11th century. And I wanted to be again authentic. This craze of authenticity started with me with Quo Vadis in 1950. This was 11 years later and I was determined to write some kind of music which will give you the flavor of medieval Spain in the 11th century.
So, I eventually arrived in Madrid. I was told that there is a great man who knows more about Spain than anybody of this century. And he was in his 90s -- he was 92, to be exact. His name was Ramón Menendez Pidal. He wrote books about Spanish history, especially about the Cid. I would say he was like Bernard Shaw was in England. He was the most beloved Spanish historian. So I was told by Mr. Bronston to go to see him, which I did. And I met this fine little gentleman who spoke fluent French, because I didn't speak any Spanish. And he said, "Well, what do you want to know?" I said, "Well, I want to know something about the music of the 11th century." He said, "Well..."
We were in his study, and there were at least 5,000 books. And his son, who was a university professor at the time, who was about 60, I would say, was also there and the old gentleman says, "Well, there's a very interesting book about the music of the 11th and 12th century." He said, "Don José, come here." And to his son, he said, "Now, go there," and he pointed to the library, "Take the ladder and … not there, no, a little bit more to the left … yes, that's right. Now go up, higher, higher, higher, higher, higher. You see a yellow book? That's it. Bring it down." Among 5,000 books, he knew exactly which is the book that I would need. And it was a book in French about early Spanish music.
Then he said, "Do you know the Cantigas of Santa Maria?" I said, "No." I said, "Well, you should." And he said, "Get me the Cantigas of Santa Maria." And there were five big tomes, all music from the 12th century, but it was still good enough, close enough that we wouldn't know the difference. And then I sat down with this old gentleman with a beautiful beard. I was very happy that there was a photographer who took pictures of us. I definitely looked younger. (Laughter) He started to tell me exactly formally how these Cantigas are done. He said, "You see, the first theme comes here, and there's a middle part in the music. And then it's repeated and so on." He actually gave me a lesson, a musicological lesson of Spanish music. So that was my first introduction to Spanish music.
Then I went to libraries and got a lot of music. I got Cantigas, which I still have. And I found very interesting pieces of odd melodies, which I have used, for instance, in the Battle of Calahorra, the beginning of the picture, if you remember that far back. There are several of these. And then I went around in Madrid for weeks and tried to absorb things. The love theme, which you have heard many times in this picture, came from the air of Spain. This was not in the Cantigas. It was not suggested by Ramón Menendez Pidal. And I think the score could not have been written anywhere else but in Spain.
Mr. Bronston was a very generous man. He was so generous that when he finished making movies, he couldn't account for $24 million to his backers in America. But he was friends with everybody. When I arrived in Spain, I lived in the Hilton Hotel at the time, but my family was supposed to come later when school was finished. So one day Bronston called me to his office and said, "When is your family arriving?" I said, "In two weeks." "Well, how do you want to live during the summer when you will work on the score?" I said, "I would like to have a house." He said, "Fine, you are going to get the best house in Madrid." I said, "Thank you." "I'll give you an agent and you go out." And I said, I don't mean just a house, the best house. And then he said, "Well, how much money will you need for your expenses a week?" I said, "I don't have the faintest idea." He said, "Will it be enough if you take as much as I do?" I said, "Yes, Mr. Bronston, I think it will just do very nicely." So he called in the secretary and said, "How much do I take away from my expenses?" The secretary said, "$500, Mr. Bronston." Now you know at that time, 16 years ago in Spain, I don't think that Franco spent $500 a month. (Laughter) So I went out and found really the best house. It was a beautiful house with four servants. We had a cook, a maid, a gardener, and a butler. It belonged to a Spanish count who was away, And there was a house in the middle of Madrid. And all this was fantastic.
Now I have a very interesting story I have to tell you about this "other" composer involved with the production. Mr. Bronston said to me, "I have to tell you something which is very unpleasant and I can't help it. I told you that there was another composer. I said, "Yes…" "He was an Italian composer. And this is an Italian co-production. Therefore, tme Italian government gives a certain amount of money for films which utilize a certain amount of Italian actors, musicians and so on. And I need that money, but I only get it if the composer is also Italian." So I asked Mr. Bronston, "Why did you ask me to come?" "Because I want you to write the music," he said. I replied, "Well, I don't understand … Are you telling me if I would allow this other composer's name on the picture only in Italy, you get the money?" (Laughter) And this was a very well-known composer and I said, "And he would accept that I wrote the music and his name is on it?" Bronston said yes, he would accept it. "Well," I said, let me think about that." But after looking at the house that he gave me (Laughter), thinking of the 500 dollars I got every week to spend only for spaghetti, you know, I said, "Well, all right, only in Italy."
I said, "But what's-his-name will want the cue sheets, you know, because the picture has cue sheets for the composer." "No, no." He said, "absolutely no. This is a formality only in Italy." So I agreed. Then when I finally went to Italy to record the music, I had a friend, Carlo Savina, a very dear friend of mine, a fine conductor, and he was my assistant. And I thought, why should another composer get it, whom I don't even know and do not respect very much? Carlo is a friend of mine, he's Italian, so I suggested, could it be Mr. Savina who gets the credit? And Bronston said, "Oh, it's all right, anyway, he's an Italian." (Laughter) So, actually, if you would see this picture in Italy, it would say "Musica di Carlo Savina et Miklós Rózsa." Now, the result was that Carlos Savina became a very famous composer. (Laughter) He got one offer after the other. And I'm sure if I would have gone to Rome and asked, "Well, what did he do?", people would have said, "Carlo Savina wrote a score." So, well, anyway, that was the prize for the beautiful house and the four servants.
Then we recorded the music in the first half of El Cid, at least, in Rome. Suddenly I got a telephone call from Hollywood, M-G-M. Before I went, they told me that my next picture is going to be Mutiny on the Bounty. I've seen the old Mutiny on the Bounty with Charles Laughton, which I felt was a very great picture. And then I read the new script, which was horrible. And I had a meeting with Sir Carol Reed, who was supposed to direct it, and we both agreed that it's no good. And finally, he didn't direct it, somebody else did. It was absolute nonsense. And so they called me from Hollywood. They said, "Well, very soon we are ready. When are you coming home?" I said, "Well, when I'm finished with El Cid. They said, "When will that be?" I said, "I'm recording the first part of the picture next week in Rome." And they said, "Well, then the week after you'll be home?" I said, "No, then the second part has to be written." They said, "Oh, no, no, you have to come home." So I ran into Mr. Bronston and said, "Did you want me to finish this picture?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Please do something about it so that I don't have to go home. I'd rather not do Mutiny on the Bounty, I wanted to do the 'Mutiny on the Cid.'"
Then lots of things were happening. We recorded ten days in Rome in a studio, which was large enough, because as you heard, I had a large orchestra, and after ten days we had it wrapped up, and I went back to Madrid to finish the second half of the picture. Suddenly I received a telegram from London: "Come immediately." This sounded ominous, so I went to London and their faces were very long. We went into a projection room and they played the opening music. I said, "No, I played it full strength." And they said, "This is it." Well, it sounded like a string quartet. I had about 90 men sawing away, you know, and tootling away on every horn we could find in Rome. And it sounded like a string quartet, but behind closed doors. (Laughter) And I said, "But this is impossible. That's not what we heard in Rome." I played it back. I played it so loud that I said, "I can't even hear them. Play it." They said, "No, no, this is what it really sounds like." And so I said, "Well, this is impossible." We went through the whole score. It was unbelievable. Apparently, something was wrong in the recording machinery. The 'osmuth' or 'asmuth.' Someone who scores movies should know this term...
Audience Member: Azimuth.
MR: Thank you very much. You know that I still don't know what "azimuth" is, 16 years later, but it was wrong. And it couldn't be used. I had to re-record the whole thing in London. Then I finished the picture in London, and this is the story of the music of El Cid. The rest you have heard, and this is the result.
(Applause)
GP: Miklós, you are an extremely peaceful man, a very easy man to get along with. And we hear all the stories of the trials, the tribulations, the difficulties, the frustrations that you and other composers too, particularly, you have gone through with various producers. And then I think of all this wonderful, stirring music you've written, all the marches, and the battle scenes and so on. And I wondered if perhaps this is one way of working out your feelings about some of these producers and letting it go in music. I think you should be called "the warrior composer."
MR: That was very kind of you to say because there was plenty of worrying over this production, which I didn't want to get into, but what you said provoked me, so I will continue. During the dubbing, when the effects and the music are put together with the dialogue, there was a lady whose name I have seen the first time today here [Verna Fields]. I wanted to forget her name as fast as possible, but today I saw it again after 16 years. She was in charge of the sound effects. You know, all the clings and clunks and chings and chunks that you hear, that had to be put in, because, after all, they were not fighting with real sabers and so forth. That had to be put in, and we were dubbing the picture, and the lady, after certain takes, went to Mr. Mann, who was the director, and was whispering something in his ear. And then Mr. Mann came back and said, "Well, could we do it once without music?" So I did it without music. And all the dubbing men said, "Well, Mr. Mann, you have not even a single scene which does not have music -- music lifts it up." Then Mann said "Let's make two takes for protection" ... many two takes of many things. I don't know whether you noticed this horrible example when there's a love scene between Chimene and Cid, and the music suddenly breaks off in the middle of a phrase. There were other examples, like between the kings and so forth.
I had to then leave finally for Hollywood. I went home, and about two months later, the cutter of the picture, Mr. Lawrence, came to Hollywood and worked on the picture, and I had seen him. And every time when two takes were done the one without the music was used. And I got terribly mad. After all, you know, you work a whole summer, and you do your best you could do. I don't know whether this was my best, but that time I thought it was. And suddenly, a silly woman, because she wanted to hear her chings and flings better, they take out the music which made scenes alive.
I was supposed to go to a national publicity tour with the records of the score. And so I sent the telegram to Mr. Bronston, who was in New York, and told him that I cannot advertise something that is not in the film any more. And there were not too many scenes that were affected, maybe three or four, but it worried me very much because it was part of my blood. And he said that he was terribly sorry but the film is finished. And I told him -- I wanted to be as fair as possible -- I said, "You are the producer, would you please listen to both versions and whatever you decide, I accept." I couldn't be more fair than that. And I got a telegram back, there's no time to do that, the picture is opening, on the weekend, it has to stay as it is, and I said that was fine. And he made three more pictures and went into a comfortable bankruptcy, but without me.
Now there was one thing that also I want to add, about my authenticity. Remember the burial of the king? Now, this was already shot when I came, and I knew that I wanted to put in the necessary music, and it would have been very easy to put in the usual Catholic/Gregorian requiem music for the dead king. But in the 11th century, the church music of Spain was not Gregorian. It was a different version. Actually, it was called the Mozarab music because the Mozarabs were those Christians who were Arabs before, or Muslims, became Christians and they called them Mozarab. And there were two churches in all Spain, one in Valencia, and one in Toledo, where this rite was still sung. And I went to Toledo, because Valencia was too far from Madrid. The Toledo dome is absolutely ravishing and there are 24 chapels. And in one chapel there was this service. And it was all arranged. with tape recorders, and I thought I'm going to have a nice little choir there, which I can use.
There was a priest, but there was nobody else in the chapel! I said, "Well, where is your choir?" He said, "You know, it's Sunday today, there is a big football match, and the choir is not coming in." He continued, "I am going to sing it to you." Well, that's something that he's going to sing it, but I can't use one man. So he said, "Well, come on, sit down next to me." The service started, and he was using these tremendous books, 600-700 year old books. He was singing it, and when the service was all finished, there was nobody at the chapel. Then he said, "Now, let's record everything." And it was his show. I said, "I appreciate that very much, but also need the words." He said, "I will sing you the music." And he did and I got the whole thing, what you have heard today. This includes the whole scene behind the funeral of the king which I later recorded in Rome with the chorus of the Roman Basilicas. We had the original Spanish music, so even that music was absolutely authentic, including the music that I got from the priest in the convent. So I had tried to be as authentic as possible. So if you have any questions, please go ahead.
Audience Member: How many brass players were used? Did you use a different brass section for different effects?
MR: Well I couldn't tell you exactly, but I would say about eight horns, four trumpets, three trombones, two tubas, not more than that.
GP: That question came from [Canadian composer] Mr. Morris Surdin, ladies and gentlemen, who had an excellent question.
Audience Member Mr. Rózsa, you didn't seem to mention Anthony Mann's name too much compared to Samuel Bronston tonight. I'm just wondering how closely you worked with the director and he with you.
MR: Well, Anthony Mann, I must say, did a magnificent job in this picture. And when I came to Madrid, he was cutting the picture. And we discussed everything, and that's about all. Then he came to the recording, and he liked every scene. He liked the music even for those scenes where the music was left out. And that's why I was so mad, because he was influenced by this lady. And finally it was his decision that so much music was left out. Seeing it now, I'm sure you're not missing it. I am missing it because I remember the music. Probably he was right, who knows. But he was a very fine director. He died too early; I don't think he was more than 55 [actually 60].
Audience member: You have music scored for the battle scene between El Cid and Chimene's father and it seemed to drop off unexpectebly.
MR: Yes, I think there were also at least five to six important musical scenes where the music was suddenly left out for no reason whatsoever.
Audience member: It seemed to be sort of choppy.
Another audience member: Can you explain the differences between the film and the soundtrack record because they sound very different?
MR: Oh, it is, yes. For reasons unknown to me, although the music was recorded in London what you have heard today. I had to go to Munich because M-G-M Records made some kind of arrangement with an orchestra in Munich and so the score was recorded in Munich, so quickly I had only a few days to put it together. Naturally it was too long, there are nearly two hours of music that we have heard tonight and that won't fit on one record. So I had to cut it down to about 40 minutes. And so that is the difference between the music in the film and on the record.
Audience member: Is there any chance that you may record some of the left-out sequences?
MR: Well, yes. If a company will ask me... Decca is making every year a record with me. Next year is King of Kings. But I do hope that after King of Kings, it will be El Cid.
Audience Member: There is a fanfare in the court scene there which opens the first scene, something which was left out of the very first album.
MR: It's not on the album.
Audience Member: What is the origin of this mysterious final track on the album "The Death of Gomez"?
MR: Frankly, I don't know. People wrote me about it but I never had the time to sit down and listen to it. I have the record at home but I never listen to my own music. I don't want to be influenced, you see. (Laughter)
GP: There's a couple of announcements, those of you who are coming tomorrow night: remember that the film will not be Providence, it will be The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Rózsa will be able to tell us more hair-raising stories. Tomorrow morning he goes to Hamilton to have the first rehearsal with the Hamilton Philharmonic. He'll be back tomorrow night. As you know, he will be conducting a concert of his music, film music and concert music, in Hamilton on Friday and Saturday night. I want to thank you very much for coming. If you would like to have a few words with Miklós before you leave, we can do so outside, up in the reception area. And thank you again very much for being here tonight.